In this latest episode of the Medya News podcast, Erem Kansoy speaks to Swedish international human right lawyer Lena Charlotta Lagnänder. Lagnänder is a member of the Stockholm Bar, and a longtime supporter of the campaign to free imprisoned Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) co-founder, Abdullah Öcalan. She attended the 2024 delegation of international lawyers to Diyarbakır (Amed) and Istanbul to speak to legal professionals and civil society organisations about the human rights situation in Turkey. A longtime advocate for Kurdish rights, she was also a signatory to an open letter written by 25 Swedish lawyers, which warned that political persecution of Kurds in Sweden has “gone off the rails”.
In our podcast, Lagnänder discusses the campaign to free Öcalan, and the human rights situation of prisoners in Turkish jails.
Our main topic today is the isolation of Kurdish leader Mr. Abdullah Öcalan, and basically the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) decisions that haven’t been implemented by Turkey as well. So my first question would be what are your concerns about the current treatment of Abdullah Öcalan, leader Apo – the isolation still continues on him. So what are your comments on the isolation of leader Öcalan and do you think it’s against human rights? Let’s start with this perspective.
It is clearly against international laws, international conventions, to keep a person under those [conditions] that Ocalan is kept on İmralı Island. He has been there for a long time. We all know that. And for the last three years, he has been kept isolated. And this is nothing that can be accepted at all. You know, maybe we will talk about that later. But to be kept in isolation is kind of a torture. And that’s not acceptable.
The Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT) has responsibilities, but since they haven’t taken any action in the last three years, it seems they don’t consider the isolation as unlawful. Or do you think they do not consider the isolation as a torture? Because [the CPT is] the only commission that can visit İmralı Island. But they didn’t visit the İmralı Island on their last visit to Turkey. Also, they didn’t publish the reports from the İmralı Island visit lately. Both the silence of the CPT and their unclear approach to Öcalan’s isolation – how would you consider that situation of the CPT?
I cannot explain how they think, the CPT. It’s difficult for me and for other lawyers to give an opinion of how they think. But from my point of view, I think it’s unacceptable that they don’t use their possibility to pressure Turkey in a way of changing the circumstances for Mr. Öcalan. And also to tell the world and Turkey what’s in the report. It’s very, very strange. And I cannot really… explain why they didn’t go to İmralı at the last visit but it’s not only me that is puzzled about this.
You know, we were [on] an international delegation to Amed (Diyarbakır) and Istanbul in February. We talked about this, we met his lawyers and we talked about this. And everyone is very puzzled and very concerned about this situation that the CPT does not seem to be willing to come to a solution with this situation. Why it is like that? I guess it has to do with politics somehow, but it’s not up to me to go into that discussion. I think it’s strange that as strong a tool as the CPT does not interfere in this situation.
Also, about the ECHR decisions, one of them is the ECHR decision on the ‘right to hope’ is not being implemented by Turkey. And there are many other decisions that Turkey doesn’t implement. [For example] the decisions of the ECHR or European Council as well as the European Parliament. But one of the most important ones is the right to hope. Can you tell us some more information about the right to hope? And it’s already been 25 years that leader Öcalan’s incarceration continues. So do you think Mr. Öcalan doesn’t have any right to hope as a human being? So how does that work? What kind of steps should be followed for him to have his right to hope?
I would say the main problem with Turkey from my point of view is that they… what do you say… [have a] neglecting attitude towards things like human rights. I mean even if you are in jail, even if you are in imprisonment, you have your human rights, and you have rights as a prisoner and you have a right as a person inside, even if you have [done] something wrong, if you understand what I mean. So whatever is the reason for you being in jail, it’s not allowed for anyone to treat you bad.
And that is what’s happening in Turkey regarding Mr. Öcalan, but also regarding other prisoners. These isolation methods are used all over the country in prison, and also in the society. Everyone has the right of hope. Everyone has certain rights because they are human beings. And you cannot withdraw some people from that right, if you understand what I mean. I don’t know if I answered your question now, but my main issue is that human rights are for everyone.
So, as our main topic is about Mr. Öcalan, and we are very well aware that every single person has human rights, but we can clearly see that Mr. Öcalan hasn’t been able to have his human rights and he is representing millions of people so he’s just not a normal person, basically. And he’s a political prisoner. So how should the legal fight against isolation on Öcalan be? What should be done in a legal way to break this isolation?
I think you have to continue to work from different perspectives, from different angles. His lawyers need to continue to do what they have done for so long, to ask for visits, to continue to try to meet him and so on. But I also think that an important step has been made with these international delegations who are coming to Turkey. We were in Turkey in 2023, we were in Turkey a couple of months ago. And I think it’s important that we meet people in Turkey who give us information about Mr. Öcalan’s situation so we can bring it to the world society because this has to be known what’s going on.
We had a conference in Brussels in the middle of April where we discussed about those issues and there will be continuing work now with a group of lawyers who will start to make a plan for long-term work to get pressure on the CPT, to spread the word about Mr. Öcalan’s situation… about the situation in Turkey. There is a petition written by lawyers, a great amount of lawyers in Turkey, about Mr. Öcalan’s isolation, and we are going to write a similar petition signed by international lawyers as well. So we have to start to build pressure on Turkey in this issue. On legal grounds, it’s important to use the legal possibilities to build this pressure.
Just to close down the topic about the CPT. I would like to ask you… So there is, even in the CPT’s own reports, mentions of torture on İmralı. [These are in] the ones that has been published before. So despite this, if the CPT still doesn’t go to İmralı, do legal experts not see this as the CPT [neglecting] its duty? So how can a legal struggle be developed against this? You tried to explain this, but we need to get a little deeper into this because you are an expert lawyer and our audience would like to know how should the legal fight be against the CPT’s position. So how can the CPT’s visit to İmralı and transparent disclosure of its reports be ensured within a legal framework by what needs to be done against the CPT’s position. Because right now, they are keeping their position not to say anything about the situation at İmralı Island.
It’s a little bit difficult for me to give you a good enough answer, but I think that this is one of the topics that need to be discussed on the upcoming conference that we are going to have, hopefully, in the end of this year. We are talking about a two-day conference, because we need to have a thorough look on how we can use, as you say, the legal framework to get the CPT to publish the report and to try to visit İmralı. The best is if they could go there. No one knows how Mr. Öcalan is, even if he’s alive.
But this is kind of a… a work that… sorry to say, it’s not a quick fix. We have to start a process that probably will take some time, but we have to start it. And of course, when you can’t get the CPT to present the report, you start to think, why? Why will they not publish their report?
Let’s talk a little more about Mr. Öcalan and his importance. So the Kurdish question is one of the deepest questions in the Middle East. For you, how important is the solution of Kurdish question for the region and for the whole world as well?
I think it’s very, very important to come to a solution. In that solution, you have the importance of finding a solution to Mr. Öcalan’s isolation at İmralı. It’s very, very important that we find a way to solve that. And that is what everyone told us when we were in Turkey. We met women’s organisations, we met lawyers, NGOs of different kinds and so on. And everyone said the same.
To get to a solution, they all wanted to be peaceful, but to get to that solution, it’s very important that the situation concerning Mr. Öcalan is a part of that. We also had a participant from South Africa with us in the delegation, because there’s a close connection between the Kurds and the South African people, and Mr. Öcalan and leaders in South Africa. But also, it was my impression that it’s important for the Kurds to discuss how the process was done in South Africa after the freedom of Mr. Mandela. Because there are similarities.
As you remember, during Mr. Mandela’s period of time while he was in jail, he was able to see his lawyers even under the apartheid regime. Turkey doesn’t let Mr. Öcalan see his lawyers, and family as well. So in that case, what is your call to Turkey to stop this isolation as it’s against human rights?
My call to Turkey is to stop the isolation methods regarding Mr. Öcalan, regarding every Kurdish person in Turkish jails, regarding organisations working for human rights and so on. Just stop it. Because this is against human rights to act like this. And we can also, if I may say, see that this is starting to spread in Europe, in different countries – Hungary, Spain, Italy. So this has to be stopped. And this is why you also have to awaken the society, not just in Turkey. But my call to Turkey is to start acting as the conventions say that you should act. Respect human rights for everyone, in jail or not.
Lastly… Since 10 October [2023], There is a campaign that Kurds and their friends are running called ‘Freedom for Öcalan, a Political Solution for the Kurdish Question’. How do you see this campaign? How important is it for you? It’s an international campaign. So what is your solidarity message with the campaign and Freedom for Öcalan?
I think as a lawyer that it’s very, very important to do what I can do as a lawyer with legal frameworks and so on. But it’s also very, very important to build pressure from what we usually [call] grassroots, from people, from movements. So I think it’s very important to have these kinds of campaigns because they are one part of what can make a difference. Lawyers working for human rights is another piece of the puzzle, and politicians are also another piece of the puzzle. So it’s very, very important, and we have to stand in solidarity from our different perspectives to get a solution on this… problem. It’s not a good word, but you understand what I mean regarding Mr. Öcalan, but also regarding the situation in the whole world.
