In this latest edition of the Medya News podcast, Erem Kansoy speak to Lindsey German about the importance of the campaign to free Abdullah Öcalan, co-founder of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK).
Lindsey is the convener of the UK’s Stop the War Coalition, and a long term supporter of the Kurdish struggle. The Stop the War Coalition has been an important voice against the UK’s arms trade with Turkey.
Interview transcript follows:
Thank you, Lindsey. So our main topic today is about the Kurdish question and the isolation on the Kurdish leader, Mr. Abdullah Öcalan. So first of all, what are your concerns about the current treatment of Abdullah Öcalan in İmralı Island prison? It’s been more than 41 months. There has been nothing heard from him. We have done many interviews with you about this topic as well, but nothing has been changed yet. So what are your concerns with this unchanged situation about Öcalan?
Well, it’s a very, very serious situation. We hear a great deal about the rule of law, about international rules-based community. We hear about freedom of expression. But of course, in the case of Öcalan, and not just him, but he’s one of the most high-profile prisoners in the Middle East, it seems to me that what’s happened to him is totally unjustifiable, that he’s classed as a terrorist. And of course, they class anybody who works for freedom for Kurdistan, for independence for Kurdistan. They treat anybody who does this as a terrorist. He’s classed as that. He doesn’t have any legal rights. He doesn’t have access to people who want to talk to him. And who he might be able to talk to. He’s not able to communicate. This is a basic denial of his rights, and it’s something that should make Turkey and the Turkish government a pariah. But of course, their policy on this is supported by a whole range of other countries, and it’s unlikely that they will do anything to help free Öcalan. And so this is a task for the rest of us that we have to try to take up.
Thank you, Lindsay. As you mentioned, Mr. Öcalan is a high profile prisoner, basically. So just to make it a little deeper, why is Abdullah Öcalan an important figure? Do you think he has a key role to play for peace in the Middle East?
Well, of course, he’s a symbol of Kurdish resistance and Kurdish struggle. And this is why, essentially, he is being kept in prison and kept unable to communicate with people for so long. And of course, It’s an attempt to deny the reality of the Middle East, which is that actually there does have to be peace in the Middle East. That requires justice and freedom and equality for all. It requires an end to national oppression, as obviously the Kurds suffer very, very badly, but so do the Palestinians and other groups. It requires an end to the oppressive regimes which dominate the Middle East. It requires proper, genuine democracy in the Middle East. And of course, all of these we’re a very long way away from. So Erdoğan plays this role because he’s a high profile figure and because he represents democracy. The views of many, many people, of the Kurdish people and many, many other people as well. And this is why he has an importance beyond just as an individual.
What has been the impact of his ideas as contained in numerous books on the politics of Turkey, the Kurdish movement, the wider Middle East region and the international arena as well? Because many people are saying his ideas are based on a peaceful world as well as the equal democratic confederal system. So what do you think about his ideas and the impact of his ideas?
Well, I think if we look at this in a slightly broader way, we can see over history, there’s a whole number of people who’ve been classified as somehow not acceptable, promoting terrorist ideas. This was said about Nelson Mandela in South Africa for many years. It was said about Gerry Adams and other people in Ireland for many, many years. It’s been a view that has been put on national liberation movements, something that’s encouraged by the oppressor, which obviously they want people to see these people are somehow illegitimate. But of course, when you look at all of those people, and you could talk about many more as well, their ideas have been about national liberation, about freedom for their own people, but also of a world where there’ll be much more freedom in general across society. And it is precisely this that the governments of the world don’t like and that they’re frightened of and they feel threatened by. So it’s those sorts of issues that we have to look at when we’re looking at the situation Kurdish people and with Öcalan in particular.
As I mentioned earlier about the 69 Nobel laureates, they all signed a common letter asking for freedom for Öcalan and break the isolation. And they sent this letter to the UN, ECHR and institutions of the EU as well as the European Council as well. How important do you think this action is? And what else needs to be done to break this isolation? Because the isolation-responsible institutions are the European Commission as well as the ECHR. So you are experienced with Mandela’s campaign as well. So what is your point of view about it? How important is it that the Nobel laureates came together?
I think it’s very significant. Sixty-nine Nobel laureates is a large number of people. They’ll come from all sorts of different backgrounds and nationalities and different disciplines that they’re specialised in. And they’re people who in general are highly respected around the world. And they are saying that this man should be freed. He should be treated as a political figure and not as a criminal as he is being treated at the moment. So I think that’s a very significant thing that’s important. But we also ought to remember that when you talk about the European Commission, you talk about these people, to be perfectly frank, these people have been complicit in wars, in criminalising migrants, in doing deals with Turkey in order to keep migrants out of Europe. and of course in designating groups as terrorist groups, such as the PKK. So, you know, they are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Now we should keep sending these letters, we should do everything we can to put pressure on these people. But I think we also have to recognise that what has brought this issue into the mainstream political agenda has been the actions of the Kurds themselves and the support that they have around the world. And it seems to me this is the key way that we need to keep campaigning for justice for the Kurdish people and for Öcalan as well.
As I understand and as I’ve experienced as well, the Stop the War Coalition is one of the most important peaceful and peace-seeker coalitions in the world right now. And with the Palestine issue, Stop the War Coalition has done great work and you’re involved in this as well. But what we understand is also the Palestinian and as well as the Israeli issue is also a part of the Middle East question, the Middle East problem. So how do you relate this with the Kurdish question as well as this Palestinian-Israeli war problem? Do you think there is some relation? And do you really think if Öcalan would be free, can we block these wars as well? Because his ideas and his position of seeking peace, do you think that would be helpful to Stop the War in that way.
Yeah, I think it would be very helpful for him to play that role, and obviously if he were free he would be playing that role. But I think we also have to look at the Middle East as a whole. We know that it has been dominated first by the imperialist powers of Europe, particularly France and Britain, which controlled very large parts of the Middle East. Including Britain had the mandate for Palestine in the years between the two world wars. Since then, of course, we’ve also had US imperialism, which plays a very, very major role, a central role, in defending Israel, in supporting and sustaining Israel, in providing it with weapons. And of course, these things are all related.
The whole way in which the Kurds were treated after the First World War, after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, was to deny them their own national identity and homeland, to carve up these countries in a way which suited the imperialists and which suited the way in which they could extract the major resources, particularly oil that they wanted to extract, and today we see it not just with the resources, the raw materials that they want to extract. But also, of course, a very, very close relationship between arms sales and arms provision in the Middle East, not just with Israel, with the Saudis, with Turkey, with all of these.
Turkey, of course, plays an important role as a member of NATO. It’s not allowed into the EU for racist reasons. It’s not allowed to play a full role in Europe, but it is allowed to be one of the major military powers in the region. And in exchange for Turkey providing that important security for NATO, it’s allowed to repress its own people and to behave in the way that it does behave. So these things are all very, very much connected. And freedom for the Palestinians, I’m sure, would lead to freedom for the Kurds and vice versa. You know, these are very, very connected struggles.
Lastly, anything else I didn’t ask, anything you would like to add on about this frame, about Öcalan’s situation, which is the most important one, because it’s been more than 41 months, as I already mentioned, nothing has been heard from him. And this is solitary confinement, and it’s also incommunicado, so it’s a kind of torture. What would you like to add on, lastly, anything I didn’t ask?
Well, it’s inhumane treatment. It’s like the treatment of people in Guantanamo Bay. It’s like the treatment of Mustafa Barghouti in Israeli jails. It’s like all these different political prisoners. It’s like the treatment of Mandela. I mean, these were people who all… they’re put in solitary confinement. They’re denied a voice. They’re denied the ability to say what they think, to communicate with their families, their friends, their comrades. They’re denied all of this. And it’s a fundamental attempt to stop their ideas getting out there. And it’s a great credit to the movement that they don’t succeed in stopping these ideas from getting out there. They don’t succeed in getting rid of the movement, that the movement still continues. And we have to keep fighting for that.
I think it’s very important we understand the role of the Western powers, the role of imperialism in the Middle East and how it has distorted and in many ways destroyed large parts of the Middle East. And the whole struggle of the Kurdish people and the whole struggle of Öcalan is a very important part of that. And we have to see it in this context. It’s not separate from the Palestinian struggle. It’s not separate from all the other battles that people have for democracy and freedom throughout the Middle East, and they’re faced with some terribly repressive regimes. So it’s very important to understand that. With Öcalan in particular, I think that they want to silence the voices of people like Öcalan. We saw this with Nelson Mandela in South Africa. We saw it with Gerry Adams in Ireland. They don’t want people to put an alternative point of view. They don’t want people to stand up for national liberation. They don’t want people who will tell you what is actually going on. And the treatment of Öcalan is a scandal.
They talk about freedom and democracy and human rights, but he’s denied access to people. He’s in isolation. This is a deliberate tactic to stop his voice from being heard and it won’t succeed. And we have to make sure that it doesn’t succeed and that people understand what the politics behind all of this is. So I’m very pleased that we’ve had the 69 Nobel laureates who have spoken out against this. I think it’s important we campaign for Öcalan’s freedom. I would also say let’s not place trust in the institutions of the European Union because they have time and time again supported these imperialist projects, supported what the Turkish government is doing, supported all these things. So let’s put our faith in the people themselves, the Kurdish people themselves and their supporters around the world. It is us who will fight for the freedom for Öcalan and hopefully we will be successful.
Thank you, dear, Lindsay German, convener of the Stop the War Coalition. Thanks for joining us and thank you for your valuable comments.
Thank you very much, Erem. Thanks for inviting me.
