Heike Geisweid, lawyer and co-chair of the German-based MAF-DAD Association for Democracy and Law, discussed the forthcoming Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal (PPT) on Rojava, set to take place on 5 and 6 February in Brussels, in an exclusive interview with Medya News reporter Jannika Feldmann. The 54th session of the tribunal will focus on allegations of human rights violations and war crimes committed by Turkey and its allied forces in North and East Syria, known as Rojava.
Geisweid explained the unique role of the People’s Tribunal in providing a legal avenue for addressing these accusations, given that Turkey has not signed the Rome Statute and therefore cannot be prosecuted at the International Criminal Court. The tribunal will examine 17 cases involving displacement, kidnapping, torture and attacks on civilian infrastructure, including medical facilities. These cases, supported by evidence and witness testimonies, will be presented to a jury, which will determine whether Turkey is guilty of these grave violations.
Turkey’s actions in Syria, particularly against areas controlled by the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (AANES), are unlawful and contrary to international law, Geisweid reiterated, as there have been no attacks by the AANES’s armed forces, the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), on Turkish territory. The Kurdish-led administration represents a positive alternative way of life, she said, and Turkey’s efforts to destroy it, while committing war crimes and human rights violations, remain largely unchecked by the international community.
In the interview, Geisweid expressed confidence that the tribunal would reach appropriate decisions and highlighted her expectation that political consequences would follow for Turkey. The Permanent People’s Tribunal (PPT) session represents a critical moment in seeking justice for the victims of Turkey’s actions in northern Syria.
The full interview transcript is published below, lightly edited for clarity:
Jannika Feldmann: A People’s Tribunal is going to be held in Brussels to address systematic human rights violations and crimes against humanity, particularly in the context of Turkey’s actions against the Kurdish population in the Syrian region known as Rojava, or North and East Syria. How would you say the tribunal builds on existing legal efforts and why is it important for the Kurdish cause and other oppressed communities?
Heike Geisweid: We are trying a legal reappraisal of what Turkey is doing in Rojava, i.e. in [the region governed by] the Kurdish Autonomous Adminstration of North and East Syria [AANES]. So this is a legal reappraisal and an assessment [asking:] are these attacks human rights violations and crimes against humanity? Because there is no possibility of taking international legal action against Turkey. We have the International Criminal Court, and in order for a country to be charged with such crimes, it must have signed the so-called Rome Statute. Turkey has not, several countries have not, the USA has not, Iran has not, in other words several important countries that should actually be brought before the International Criminal Court for various offences against international humanitarian law have not signed this Rome Statute, including Turkey. This means that everything that Turkey is doing in Rojava or in general, that we or other people think are human rights violations, war crimes or crimes against humanity, are not justifiable.
Against this backdrop, the first Brussels Tribunal took place in 1967, it was about crimes committed by the USA during the Vietnam War, and that is exactly what the Kurdish Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria wants to happen. And this is supported by our organisation, but also by other legal organisations, as well as by organisations from Rojava itself… and we then started to take cases. And the tribunal will decide on the cases presented, whether they are war crimes or crimes against humanity.
The tribunal is important insofar as it is an opportunity to actually delve deeper into the actual cases and show the public what Turkey is doing there. It’s not as if nobody would think that these could be war crimes or violations of international humanitarian law. I believe that in 2019, after Turkey’s invasion as part of Operation Peace Spring, the scientific service of the German Bundestag established that this myth of the right of self-defence, which Turkey always pulls out, saying that “we need to defend ourselves against attacks from Rojava”, is not true.
That is a myth and there is no reason for [the exercise of] the right of self-defence, and what Turkey is doing is therefore contrary to international law. In other words, even the scientific service of the German Bundestag and various other people see this, but there are no consequences and there is no reappraisal. And that is what is supposed to happen at the tribunal.
Individual cases are prepared, analysed and presented to the public and the tribunal’s jury, who can of course ask questions, witnesses are questioned, experts appear and then a decision is made at the end, which is then presented to the public and also to the political parties.
We would then be interested to know exactly what steps will be taken to collect and record witness statements and evidence during the tribunal. How can individuals participate in the tribunal?
The tribunal that will be [held] there is called the Permanent People’s Tribunal. It is an organisation that was founded in the 1970s as a continuation of the Water Tribunal in Bologna in Italy, in 1973, and the idea was – the Water Tribunal was the mother of tribunals against states that could not otherwise be brought to justice – to create a permanent institution which people could turn to, to bring such a tribunal into being. And this Permanent People’s Tribunal is based in Italy.
And this tribunal was called last year by the Kurdish autonomous administration with the support of MAF-DAD and other organisations. And we, a group of lawyers from Europe, are from Cyprus, Italy, Germany of course, Ireland and Belgium, we have singled out various points where we believe crimes against humanity or war crimes have been committed. And we have investigated these in cooperation with lawyers and organisations in Rojava itself. In other words, we have evidence. The cases have now been prepared. So we are in close contact with organisations and colleagues in Rojava itself.
We have a total of 17 cases. And the individual cases are being presented by the various colleagues. And with the evidence, the jury can of course ask questions and so on. Turkey has of course also been invited as a defendant or as a defendant country. I have no knowledge that Turkey will have anyone present in its defence at the tribunal.
How can individuals participate? Of course, it is important that it is a people’s tribunal. This means that the people should also take part, simply to find out what happening. We hope that there will be a lot of press coverage so that what is presented is also passed on in the press. We hope that politicians will come and pass this on to their parliaments. We are convinced that a decision will be made that finds Turkey guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. And that the various states will then also draw consequences.
And as you have just mentioned, you will also be there at the People’s Tribunal as one of the [prosecution] lawyers. Can you tell us about the case you will be representing there?
I depict attacks on medical facilities. I’m talking about the destruction of the Kobanê Medical Centre, the Miştenur Medical Centre, a medical oxygen filling plant in Qamishli (Qamişlo) and a dialysis unit in Qamishli. They all happened as part of the [military] operation before last, (the last one is currently underway), so between October ’23 and January ’24 , around 200 bombs were dropped on 50 targets. At least that’s what the Turkish Ministry of Defence said at the end. On 23 December 2023, these four medical facilities were completely destroyed.
They are also located in the centre of Qamishli or Kobanê and had no connection to any military facilities, and were used by a very, very large number of people. For example, the bottling plant for medical oxygen supplied all the hospitals in Rojava, including private hospitals and various health centres. Miştenur Hospital treated around 500 patients a day in the emergency department.
They had ambulances to take non-mobile patients. They provided free medication for chronically ill patients. The destruction of these hospitals also led to the death of an elderly man in December 2023, who died of kidney failure as a result of not receiving dialysis.
People have been displaced simply because they needed essential medical treatment and could no longer get it after the destruction of the two medical centres. We will explain all of this and also demonstrate that these are war crimes. War crimes are committed when there is an armed conflict and Turkey is clearly attacking Syrian territory, in this case the autonomous region of North and East Syria.
In fact, there have been no attacks by the Syrian Democratic Forces on Turkish territory. Turkey is throwing a shadow over everything with the narrative that the northern Kurdish autonomous region, i.e. Rojava, and the People’s Defence Units (YPG), are nothing more than offshoots of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), and with this narrative the internal Turkish conflict then becomes an international armed conflict, which brings us into international humanitarian law. And that is why the civilian population or civilian facilities are subject to special protection in such situations.
And now once again specifically the attacks in December 23. Not only the medical facilities were affected then, but a school and a gas station were also attacked. These are all different points, that are also explained.
One is the violation of international humanitarian law, the other is Turkey’s intention. It is simply terrorising the civilian population, destabilising the entire region and always with the background of the [trade] corridor they want to build there. And thus displacing people who live there, using meausres that are war crimes.
We have different situations in Afrin, there are several points, displacement and kidnapping as well as torture. Then we have the killing of civilians. Hevrin Khalef is certainly one of the best known people deliberately murdered by Turkish forces. And then there are also people deliberately murdered by Turkish drones.
In the last two months, since around the beginning of December, after the fall of the Assad regime in Syria, there has been a renewed escalation of Turkish attacks on North and East Syria. And civilians are also being targeted, i.e. civilians are being killed and civilian infrastructure is being targeted. How would you categorise these attacks politically?
Yes, I mean, in principle, Turkey is doing what it has been doing since 2016. There have been repeated operations. And now it is simply taking advantage of the uncertain situation with the fall of the Assad regime and the very surprising advance of the HTS and takeover of the Syrian state. The Rojava system is one which simply demonstrates a very positive system of a different life that is lived there. [Turkey is acting] to destroy that, simply, I think, so as not to give the Kurds in other regions, in Turkey or in Bashur [Iraqi Kurdistan] or elsewhere, the opportunity to perhaps implement these systems in their respective parts of Kurdistan or to be able to build a different political and social life for the people.
And I believe that Turkey is terribly afraid that this system will somehow be transferred to Turkey or that such structures will be established in the Kurdish regions and that the Turkish system, this unity of the Turkish state, will begin to crumble, and people will question whether they still want to live with this one-man principle, this presidential principle with [Turkish President] Erdoğan as that person.
And I find it dramatic that all this is happening before the eyes of the public, because Syria is simply in the spotlight right now, that all this is happening before the eyes of the public, that a NATO partner is once again committing war crimes, human rights crimes, as I have just said, and nobody is putting a stop to it. That still leaves me stunned.
What legal or political consequences do you think the Tribunal’s findings could have for Turkey?
Political consequences, that is what we want. If the verdict comes out the way we as the prosecution team hope it will, and we assume that we have prepared it well enough that the appropriate decisions are made, then we hope for political consequences.
Then I hope that the German government will exert pressure on Turkey, that economic sanctions will be introduced and that the measures will be brought to the International Criminal Court via the UN. That is possible. And I also hope that German public prosecutors will take action against Turkey under the International Criminal Code. That is also a possibility.
I hope that there will be a small domino effect if the tribunal decides that there should be political consequences as well as legal consequences against Turkey in the various countries.
Another point of information: the last tribunal was in Paris in 2018. There was already a tribunal against Turkey there. It was about human rights violations and war crimes against the Kurdish population in Turkey itself. Turkey was condemned for crimes against humanity and war crimes alleged there, too. And this judgement was then also presented in the European Parliament. And various political parties discussed it.
Regarding your role as co-chair of MAF-DAD in Germany. How do you see MAF-DAD’s role in supporting this tribunal or in supporting similar initiatives?
The trigger for us to start collecting these cases was people from Rojava who contacted our organisation. And that was also the reason why other Kurdish organisations approached us at some point, and we thought together about what we could do. In this respect, MAF-DAD played a prominent role and said, okay, let’s turn this into a tribunal, and let’s really work on this and present it to the public.
And I’m also very proud that we’ve been really consistent in this since 2019, educating our colleagues in Rojava, collecting information, and we’ve dealt with several cases. A large part of what will now also be at the tribunal is [from] background work by MAF-DAD, supplemented of course by many other cases.
And now we have the tribunal and I think that is an important step, an important end, a stage that we have reached. That doesn’t mean that once the tribunal is over, our work in Rojava will end. On the contrary, we have to make sure that we go back to the various bodies in the individual countries with the information and the elaborations and try to build up political pressure.
Super, thank you very much. Thank you for all the detailed answers.
Okay, you’re welcome.
