In this latest edition of the Medya News podcast, Erem Kansoy speaks to Jody Williams about the recent letter by 69 Nobel laureates from around the world calling for an end to the isolation of imprisoned Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Öcalan. Öcalan has been held for 25 years on the Turkish island of İmralı.
Williams won the Nobel Peace prize for her advocacy work against the use of landmines, and her campaigning work in support of human rights, particularly those of women. She signed a previous letter calling for an end to the isolation, along with other Nobel laureates, in 2019.
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Interview transcript:
Jody Williams, 1997 Nobel Peace Prize winner and chair of the Nobel Women’s Initiative. Thanks for joining us today.
Well, thanks for inviting me.
Thank you, dear Jody. So I would like to ask you the first question. Can you, first of all, explain to our audience why you led the letter-writing campaign related to Mr Öcalan’s freedom and solving the wider Kurdish question? And both letters refer to these two issues as having a symbolic relationship. Can you speak on why they are inseparable?
I have been an activist for peace, for justice, for human rights since the Vietnam War period. That’s a long time. Over my decades of work, of course, I pay attention to major issues of human rights abuses, violations of laws of war, etc. The Kurdish issue is a huge unresolved issue that needs to be dealt with internationally, needs pressure on organisations and on the president of Turkey to make something happen. In 2019, I signed a letter during the hunger strike of political prisoners in Turkey and which also called for the end to the isolation of Öcalan. That made me more aware, obviously. And then when I was asked if I could participate in a conference in Europe about Öcalan and the situation of the Kurdish people, I tried very hard to go and I couldn’t. But I paid a lot more attention to the current situation of Ocalan’s more than 25 years in prison, his horrifying treatment and isolation, and started looking a little more into the past efforts to end this insanity. I think this kind of thing is insanity.
I look at all of the violence going on in the world right now and it seems worse and worse and worse. I learned in my research, if you will, that even Erdoğan had approached Öcalan to try to find some sort of solution. There was the Oslo process and then the more direct [process] with Öcalan and I guess advisors of Erdoğan and then [we] saw that it fell apart. And through looking at that history, I recognise that Öcalan is considered by the overwhelming majority of Kurds to be their political, spiritual, emotional leader. And without his participation in the process, in a process, it would be very difficult to find a meaningful solution to this age old problem for the Kurdish peoples.
So that’s why I decided to offer to do another letter campaign addressing the international bodies that should be paying attention to his treatment, the torture of isolation, the illegality of isolation, and writing to Erdoğan as well, asking him to please restart the negotiations that had been going on. And I offered to the international campaign for Öcalan that I would be willing to do that. And that’s how it started.
I did more research to write the letters. So they made sense… They were vetted by Kurdish people in the campaign for him. And… they were accepted, and then I sent them out with another Nobel colleague of mine to all the Nobels today. It didn’t matter whether they were Peace Nobels or medicine or literature or whatever. It was to every Nobel. We have 69 Nobels who have signed, which is a lot more obviously than the 50 we had in 2019. I see that as really positive. I hope that it helps to stir some action for the Kurdish people. I’m willing to continue to try to help.
Thank you, dear Jody. Secondly, how is the issue of Mr Öcalan and the Kurds tied to regional and international politics, and what importance does it have globally?
The Kurdish people have been harassed, tried to be disappeared as an issue forever, it seems. And perhaps the discussion or negotiations with Öcalan and Turkey were a high point, but since Turkey has been attacking Kurdish people in Syria and Iraq, that obviously makes it a regional issue in a region that already has tons of violence and war and lack of regard for human rights. So I wanted to try to make that different.
Thank you, Jody. Also, the letters are addressed to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights, as well as the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture, the CPT, and the UN Human Rights Committee, where you request that they fulfil their legal obligations. So why were these parties chosen and how are they failing in their duties?
Turkey, as a member of the European Union, should have to respond to the decisions of those agencies that we wrote the letter to. In fact, the agencies or organisations themselves don’t push him. they make some advisories. They come across as advisory suggestions. He doesn’t answer, and the torture and isolation goes on. I thought about it, of course, and thought that the reason is that they fear if they pressure too much, they won’t have any information about him. But doing nothing is not helping him. It is not helping the Kurdish people. I totally believe that organisations who are supposed to press human rights should actually do it. And these organisations have failed.
Let’s talk a little about the letter as well. It’s important in the letter you remind them how 50 Nobel literatures have signed and are concerned about the human rights of Öcalan? And are you expecting a positive reply soon? Or if not, what is your next step?
The letter with 50 Nobels who signed was a 2019 letter in support of the political prisoners who were on hunger strike. and calling for the end of isolation of Öcalan. Nothing happened. So in talking with the international campaign for Öcalan’s freedom, we thought it would be useful to do it again. So I said that I would help and I would write the letters and we now are 69 Nobels who have signed these most recent letters. I don’t expect an answer, to be quite honest. Since they haven’t answered before, I’m not sure why they would deign to answer again and to answer this time. Of course, I wish they would.
But I don’t, especially from Erdoğan. I don’t expect anything from him. He ignores everybody. When the various organisations that we addressed in one of the letters pressured or released assessments of the illegality of isolation and its torture, et cetera, et cetera, he didn’t answer. He never answers. Or he answers… with lies. I don’t know what will come next, to be honest. The letters are going out soon. They haven’t gone yet. I don’t have anything to do with the timing. It’s the international campaign. And I don’t know what we’ll do next. I think it’s hard to plan that at this point because we need to see if there’s a response. And if there’s a response, what does it say other than more lies? So we’ll have to keep paying attention and assess what would be the next steps.
Why do you think these organisations do not comply with their duties? Both the CPT and the UN acknowledge that the long-term isolation is a torture. But yet they do not require Turkey to honour their legal agreements. Why does it seem Turkey is immune to accountability? And could Öcalan be seen more as a hostage than a prisoner at this point in this position?
I don’t think Turkey is any more or less immune than other countries that violate human rights. Let’s look at the Israeli genocide that we’re seeing at this moment. The International Court of Justice has called for change and they ignored [the court] and continued the genocide. I believe that the international system is in a horrifyingly bad state. And it allows countries like Turkey to ignore things that they’re supposed to do. Unless impunity is really… ended, this will continue. Not just about Öcalan, but in general, when countries are seeking power over others.
Do I think he’s a hostage or still a prisoner? I think he’s a prisoner hostage. I don’t think there’s much, really much difference between his state as a prisoner and his state as a hostage to the policies of Turkey. And I think the organisations don’t want to push Turkey because they are afraid that their access will be even less. Which to me is useless. A useless way to look at it because he’s still in prison 25 years later.
What role has the cruelty played in Öcalan’s conditions over the past 25 years? It seems from past actions, like when Turkey cut down a tree slowly because Öcalan expressed he enjoyed seeing it from his window, that the Turkish state policy is driven by bitter animus. How do you see that?
I think that’s the correct analysis. They are driven by hatred and animosity and just wanting the Kurdish issue to go away. And Öcalan to go away with it. It’s not going to happen. Ignoring the situation is not a solution. Cruelty and hatred is not a solution. The world needs to press Turkey. And, you know, in the state of the world when there’s so much violence, with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, when the genocide in Gaza, which I already mentioned [is ongoing], what’s been happening to Kurds for decades and decades, and the imprisonment of Öcalan, it just shows the… really awful state of the world today. And impunity is one of the problems. Impunity allows Turkey to treat Öcalan however they want because nothing happens. That’s why we did the letters and we’re hoping that the international campaign on his behalf bears some fruit.
Is it fair to say that the inaction towards Öcalan’s case is geopolitical or perhaps even related to the domestic EU international politics? We saw how fast the Council of Europe executed Russia’s membership, as you remember. However, Turkey always seems to receive a free pass for their violations. So as a NATO member, and state responsible for stopping the immigrants flows into Europe. Currently, Turkey is attacking Iraqi Kurdistan, and Rojava as well on a daily basis. Every day, they’re bombing the area. But no European state seems like that they’re concerned about it. So why is that, do you think?
From my limited understanding, Turkey has always been important to the EU and NATO because they see it as a bridge between Europe and the Muslim world, would be my analysis. So they don’t want to upset that situation at this point. They probably don’t want to get involved with another war. They’re afraid. That’s not a good thing.
So what can people do to help compel these institutions to carry out their duties to investigate, monitor and require Turkey to uphold international law on İmralı Island? How can they make their voice heard or assist the cause?
They could join the international campaign to free Abdullah Öcalan. That would be my first suggestion. When you become part of a movement, it’s easier to act because there are people around you with the same visions, who are acting. Sometimes if you feel isolated, it doesn’t work so well. So I would suggest they join the campaign and they can write individual letters to Erdoğan. They can write individual follow-up letters to the organisations that we wrote to. It’s a pretty, to me, obvious way to start.
Thank you. You already mentioned that the next step will be according to the reply, even if it comes or not, but just wanted to let our audience know, do you have any future steps planned already with the Nobel literatures on this matter? If there is anything, what would that be?
There isn’t anything planned at this moment. I think there will be a discussion with the leadership of the international campaign to free Öcalan. I’m thinking of various things. I think there needs to be a very big push for the world to recognise what Turkey is doing to Kurds in Iraq, Syria, and recognise it as a war.
Thank you, Jody. Lastly, what are some other initiatives, causes, or prisoners cases related to the Kurdish issue that you believe requires the world’s attention?
I think the entire situation requires the world’s attention. As long as it continues in obscurity, it’s easy for Turkey to keep doing what it’s been doing. So to have people who are very concerned join the campaign, start writing their own letters, planning events about it, you know, where they are. It’s not difficult. It’s just believing that when you work with other people, you can help change the situation. I believe that, which is why I’m still an activist.
Thank you, Jody. Lastly, anything else I didn’t ask about the letter campaign? Anything you would like to add on? Or if you would like to give a very short freedom for Öcalan message, please have your last words.
It would be my very strong hope to visit him in prison with other Nobels. I want him to know that we stand with him. We recognise that the Kurdish people see him as their leader. And I think it would be a good thing for Turkey to let us go and meet with him. That’d be my first step. And then we go from there.
Thank you dear – Jody Williams, 1997 Nobel Peace Prize winner. and chair of the Nobel Women’s Initiative. Thanks for joining us, and thank you for your valuable comments.
